BONUS: Baking Your Brand Cake with Robyn LeRoy-Evans | Episode 74

This is an unedited transcript and the timestamps don’t match exactly with the final audio. Thanks for your understanding!

What’s really hard is when you just are talking about the same things. And if you share the same values and if you’re like us and you care about doing good in the world with your business, there’s a lot of the same phrases that get turned around and like same words. You see the same words, you see the same messaging over and over and over again.

And that makes for very dull copy. Sometimes you do have to kind of think about how can, how can I say this, but in a way that is, It’s unique and different. And it’s in copywriting, we say no cliches, like don’t write in cliches because cliches are overused. You know, they’re cliched for a reason.

Welcome to the Purpose and Progress Podcast, where values spark action. I’m your host, Ashlee Sang, a Values Aligned Brand Messaging Strategist and Consultant, Wife and Mama, Thrifter and Traveler. And this is a podcast for women who want to lift up, learn from, and work with each other as you build a business that feels and does good.

All your passion, expertise, and ambition combined into the unique way you show up and stand out. So let’s celebrate our paths toward purpose and progress. Come for the anecdotes and advice. Leave with the motivation to take confident, meaningful action toward your vision.

Hello, hello, and welcome back to the Purpose and Progress podcast. I’m coming at you today with an analogy in this Bonus episode on this fine fifth Tuesday of the month a while back I did an IG live with Robyn Leroy-Evans of Echo and Scribe to chat all things personality-packed copy values aligned messaging and purposeful business. She is so unapologetically herself and waves her freak flag in all the best ways which encourages her clients to do the same.

And I’m going to share our conversation after this prelude, I’ll link it and her Instagram in the show notes. But anyway, About 20 minutes into our very clearly unplanned conversation, we went on this unexpected metaphor riff about your brand as a cake. And it really stuck with me. What can I say? I love cake and a good visual to make big nebulous concepts like branding and business building more concrete.

So basically your brand, just like anything you bake, has a unique recipe. The quality and amount of ingredients, which would be your offers, your frameworks, your personality, your values, your past experiences, et cetera, are different than your neighbors, even if you’re making the same dish or the same style cake.

And while so many of us are offering cake, a. k. a. graphic design, or systems optimization, or life coaching, or whatever else it is that you do, it’s dependent on your, and your customer’s, flavor and dietary preferences. Even the way you decorate your cake, your brand colors, your fonts, your brand voice, etc.

Makes a difference, right? In the overarching experience of life. buying, eating, enjoying a cake. And of course, you tweak your recipe, your vision, your offer suite, your ideal audience, etc. over time. Because along the way you get feedback, you learn tips and tricks, and your tastes evolve, and so do your audiences.

And you have to be intentional with what you throw into the mix, right? Think of any food combo. Just because two things are your favorites doesn’t mean they necessarily go together. I’m a big fan of unexpected combos. Give me all the sweet and salty and far fetched palate choices all day, every day. But there needs to be a line somewhere, right?

I love garlic and I love chocolate, but it doesn’t probably be a stretch to make them work together. Although quite honestly that probably exists and like maybe it would be yummy. But that’s an aside. We also want to be careful not to spread ourselves too thin. Like is it still a cake? Is it still the brand you had in mind if it’s a deconstructed trifle versus a very traditional three layer birthday cake.

I heard once, sorry, I cannot remember the source about a t shirt company trying to make underwear or jeans or socks. They might be able to expand and serve their customers in new ways, but they might in turn lose their reputation for the t shirts they originally created. They might cut corners on producing the best t shirts, or they might not be able to translate t shirt best practices to other garments.

So I’m mixing metaphors a bit here. I feel like this actually happens a lot. That works well for my brain. Hopefully I’m not giving yours whiplash. But basically, it’s important to know where you stand, where you’re headed, and how to communicate all of the above with your perfect fit people. And if that’s a bit of a struggle for you, or you’re feeling really good about your quote unquote, “cake recipe” and you want an expert opinion to tell you their thoughts about it, then consider working with me directly to start getting all those swirling thoughts out of your head and heart and into the real world. You can do that first and foremost by breaking a free alignment call at ashleesang.com/align or grab the link in the show notes and be sure to check out all the resources that Robyn and I mention in the show notes below or at ashleesang.com/episode74.com . And with that, here’s the original conversation about human first, ethical business, personality packed copy and messaging, and even more thoughts about cake and business with Robyn.

Hey, how are you? 

Good. How are you? 

Good. Happy Thursday. 

Happy Thursday. 

Um, so I’m super excited to talk all things copy, messaging, ethical practices in business. Um, let’s lay the scene for everyone watching. What, uh, what do you do Robyn? What is Echo & Scribe? Why are we, why are we chatting today? 

Hi, um, oh my goodness.

Hello Kat. Sorry, that’s my friend in the UK that just joined. Um, Yeah, I am a copywriter for badass brands and biz owners who want to stand out from the rest of the crowd with personality led copy and You know based on their Like ethical values and their eco values and I work with all sorts of different businesses who um, basically just want the world a better place than Where we found it or where we’re at now.

So Yeah, I um Yeah, I’m rambling already. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. 

No, not at all. Plus we’re, we’re the words people, right? So like people have to know that they’re in store for, for some chattiness. 

Um, so I’m used to writing so, and I’m like not used to being out in the world. So even though this is just me talking to my phone, it’s, it’s, it’s a lot, it’s a lot.

Yeah. I think so many people can relate to that. Uh, I feel like so many online business owners are. introverts and who like to be able to write their thoughts before they say them and all the things. I know, um, I’m definitely in that vote too. Well, I want to lay the scene for everyone maybe who’s from your audience who doesn’t know me or who just like randomly stumbled upon this live too.

So I am Ashlee and I work with really ambitious and talented people. I experienced women who have businesses and don’t know how to talk about them will have or have personal brands and don’t know how to tie together all the threads of all their amazing experience and impact that they’ve had so far.

And so I use values aligned brand messaging strategy. To tie together those threads and make it so that these conscious and caring business owners that I work with and love to prop up, um, and have their, their messages amplified. I make it so that they are able to show up with confidence. So that they can get on a live like this and talk about what they know and do and love and, uh, show up in any capacity and have a really clear, cohesive brand so that they can reach the people they need to reach.

They want to reach and have the impact that they want to have, as well as the revenue that they want to have, because we can only do so much on best wishes, right? Like, we all need money to make. the change that we want to make. 

Absolutely. 

So, so to that end, let’s talk about ethical business. Like, what is, what does that mean to you? How do you use coffee to do it? What does it mean to your clients? Anything around ethical business that you want to share. 

Yeah, um, well, I think it’s a great question. So, um,

Buzz like a buzzword and I think some people, um, maybe feel I, I know I felt like I was almost too afraid to use that word because, um, of the implications and like the pressure it would then put on me to like, I don’t know, I think, I think a lot of people in our kind of circle, um, or like our not our circle, um, but like our, um, Are just the people who we work with I think I found a lot of people find that they have to like be perfect at um what they’re doing and and like every piece of content has to be like um, you know taking into consideration like all of these things and We’re all just learning like we’re all just human and I think that that’s at the heart of what I try to um Promote with my With my content and you know using humor as well when I can Because at the end of the day like it doesn’t matter if you are Doing things imperfectly.

It’s it’s all about Showing up kind of as a human being and like letting your flaws, um, be, be kind of like your, you know, your shining differences instead. Like, I mean, I feel that there’s this, there’s this need to, to, to kind of put on these, these like different masks and feel that we have to, um, I don’t know, Be the perfect entrepreneur or the perfect activist, perfect.

Um, you know, whatever. And it’s just, that’s just not the way it works. Like we’re all doing our best and we’re all trying, um, like you said, make a living and sustain ourselves while upholding these values. And sometimes there’s so much conflict with that because, because of the collective pressure and the collective like energy that we, especially if we’re, you know, empathetic people and We, you know, we take on like the problems of the world.

Um, you know, we’re all like, you know, overwhelmed by everything right now. Like it’s, it’s hard not to be. So it’s, it’s kind of, for me, it’s like finding a way to show up in the business space that feels really good for you because ultimately it’s different for everybody. It’s our capacity is different.

Our energy is different. Um, what we have access to is different. And like all these Come into play. So we, like, we can’t look at somebody who is, you know, I mean, I could go on and on, but there’s so many different tangents I want to take now. But, you know, I think there’s a lot of pressure. And I think when I think about ethical business, I really want to, like, take that pressure off of us.

And I think it comes down to being human and focusing in on our humanity as individuals, but then also as a collective. Yeah. Oh, okay. I have so many thoughts about everything you just said. Um, one, I recently heard this idea of, um, uh, we can’t connect with perfect or like perfect doesn’t build connection or something like that.

Um, I can’t remember what the exact quote was, but, um, it’s this concept of having your humanity shine through because. No one, while we all like shiny, while we all like inspiration, we all like gold standards, right? Like I’m an Enneagram one, uh, so I have like very high moral high ground. Uh, and, and when I think of what is ethical or what is not, it’s, it can be cut and dry for me.

Um, and so this idea of having like a human. Aspect to everything we’re doing progress over perfection. Um, connecting flaws and all showing up with transparency and connecting on the pain points. Maybe it’s a pain point in your personal life. Maybe it’s a pain point. You have a business partnership. Go awry.

Or, um, you had a client that you thought was going to be a dream and then they just fell through. How are you able to share those? human parts of your life, of your business, and show up in a vulnerable way while still protecting yourself and your privacy and your needs and your boundaries, right? Like it’s, it looks different for all of us, but I think that humanity is the common thread.

Um, And also, um, I had so many more thoughts. Oh, you talked about, um, running a business that feels good. I often say, um, that we’re building businesses that not only feel good, but do good, right? Because we can’t do good if the container that we’ve built for ourselves is not good. conducive for our lifestyle, for how our brain works, for the causes that we care about, for our values, right?

Like, we could put ourselves in these containers to have maximum impact, maximum revenue, but then if it’s not aligned, we’re going to burn out. We’re not going to be able to connect on a human level if our whole heart and, uh, If we’re not committed to what it is that we’re building. Um, so I really love this idea of, um, I, sorry, I’m trying to click, click buttons at the same time. Um, I really love this idea of connecting on a human level. 

Hi, Ashlee here. I’m jumping in quickly to remind you that if you want a business that feels and does good. Aligning your values is the most important step. It’s how you show up consistently, stand out, and connect with clients and partners on a human level. Whether you want brand messaging strategy, ongoing conscious marketing consulting, or even Anything in between, I’m here for the empathetic accountability you need to take confident, meaningful action toward your vision without getting trapped in your deep thoughts along the way. Book a free alignment call to chat about whether we’re the right fit to work together. It’s linked in the show notes or at ashlesang.com/align. Now back to the interview. 

And you also talked a lot, um, in your content and you mentioned that you like coffee that packs up personality punch. Um, do you have any tips around how to inject more personality in your coffee, especially if You aren’t ready to work with a copywriter yet or even like if you’re looking for a copywriter How to make sure it’s a personality match that they really understand your voice anything around personality and copy Yeah, personality is a big one for me because I truly feel um That it’s I mean You see so much content Everywhere like you’re we’re always bombarded by all this content but what’s Really hard is when you just are Trying to like, like separate yourself from all of that, especially if you’re talking about the same things and if you share the same values and if you know, you’re like us and you care about, um, you know, doing good in the world with your business.

There’s a lot of the same phrases that get turned around and like, um, The same, same words. You see the same words. You see the same messaging over and over and over again and that makes for very dull copies sometimes and it pains me because it is hard like it is a skill because You do have to kind of think about how can how can I say this but in a way that is Unique and different.

And one of my favorite things to do, um, and again, this is like, it, it, you need to kind of practice it and because sometimes it will fall, will fall flat if you, um, try it. And it, it’s just like, no, but so the whole idea of a cliche, right? Um, is in copywriting we say, no, cliches, like, don’t write in cliches because cliches are overused.

You know, it, they’re cliched for a reason. So, um. There to be avoided, but if you take a cliche, for example, and then turn it on its head and add something that is unique to you and your brand. So for example, let me try to think on the spot here. I’m not gonna thinking on the spot. This is why I’m a writer, but say like, um, what’s your favorite cliche, Ashley?

Like what, what, what, what do you like to say often is, um, a cliche. I feel like I have them all the time because my dad is all about, like, expressions, and I feel like I’ve just absorbed them, but I can never think of them on the spot, either. Um, what about, like, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound and whatever?

Like, you know what I mean? Like, um, Okay, okay, um, that wasn’t even a complete one, so let’s see. Um, I mean, I thought of one. Okay, I thought of one. Okay, good. But if you think of one, think of another one. Um, so like, for example, you know the phrase, like, it’s water under the bridge? Oh, okay. Yeah. So, instead of saying it’s water under the bridge now, you could say, it’s water under the Eurotunnel or something.

I don’t know. It’s just so, like, something silly, like, I, I, that’s a terrible example, but putting something where it’s expected or Where there’s a certain word that’s expected and then turning on its head. So, for example, in, I think on one of my web copy pages I’ve written, I, instead of saying I, I was in the same boat as you, I said I, I was in the same canoe as you.

Just to, like, switch it up, because when our brains are given something different, and when they get surprised by something unexpected, we start paying attention again. So it’s like, It’s like giving people, um, you know, a little jolt of like, okay, I need to pay attention again. And I’m actually interested in reading this because it’s not going to just trail off into sounding like everybody else’s coffee.

Um, but yeah, it’s something that you don’t want to overuse and, um, you have to practice it. Like the example I gave just now is terrible, but you know, you kind of, you can find like fun little examples and you’ll see it in places too. Um, um, And you might pick up on it when, when you read like an email or something.

People, people have been doing it more, I’ve noticed, but, um, But yeah, I’m trying to think of another way to inject personality. There’s so many, I mean, I really think that, um, I mean, everybody says this, but like, Not just writing how you talk, but actually writing how you, um, you know, You need to be reading your copy out loud to be able to hear how your copy is landing for, for the other person, because Again, you know, so many of us go into like this, um, corporate speak or this very stuffy formal, um, tight, tight language and it can feel so, um, unnatural and, um, it’s just kind of breaking all that down and getting your point across in a way that is really clear, always really clear, but make it fun, like make it fun to read.

And part of that is also how you present your coffee, too, because, um, the way that you, like, pull out certain words also will show your personality. Like, you can put the emphasis on certain words and make sure that people understand, like, how you want this to be heard. And so they can start to get like a real sense of your voice.

Yeah, yeah. Um, Michelle in the comments says, I love when people write CTAs in their brand voice. That’s a really great, subtle way to inject some personality, right? So instead of Sign up now like how could you make it more interesting? What would you actually say to your client or your friend or? Even one of the ways that we don’t think about this connection necessarily all the time But I think there’s a really strong connection between your voice your personality and your values, right?

So if you really if it’s fun Is one of your core values. You want the entire client experience to be fun. You want running your business to be fun. You want to bring more joy and levity to the world through whatever it is that you’re offering. Then of course, if you have stuffy calls to action, headlines, uh, email content, whatever it is, it’s going to feel so misaligned, right?

So fun would be a lens through which you could run your copy as you’re reading it out loud. As you are, um, asking a VA or a business bestie or whoever it is to review it. All right. Does this come across as fun? Because our values are how we show up in the world or how we make people feel. So your copy should absolutely be an extension and an emulation of the VA.

Is emulation a noun? You emulate something. Your copy should absolutely emulate your values, right? So same thing with simplicity. Um, I work with a lot of clients actually that one of their core values ends up being simplicity. Um, and of course they all uniquely define what that means to them, but one of the ways that they could filter through their copy is Does this feel simple and straightforward?

Am I making my sentences a mile long? Am I adding all of the nuts and bolts and benefits and features when I could simply say what the ultimate transformation is? That sort of thing. Um, so I think it’s a really useful and a little bit out of the box exercise to think about what are my core values and how does that align with my copy and my voice and my personality.

Absolutely. I love that. And it’s so true because you see that a lot. Like I, you know, I’ve had clients who are incredible on video. Like they, when they talk on camera, they’re, you know, they’re like the opposite of me. So like when I talk on camera, I don’t know what I’m saying. I, I can’t make sense of things, but when they talk to the camera, you know, everything that comes out of their mouth is gold dust.

But then when they go to put that onto the paper, like that’s that just, And so it’s really interesting to hear you talk about the different lenses that to run your coffee through because it’s so it’s absolutely true. And, um, yeah, I love that. Well, and that’s why I love this idea of. Like having a team behind you, even if it’s not employees, right?

Like even if you’re a solopreneur, having a brand messaging strategist to lay that foundation, having an amazing co operator to implement that strategy, having a web designer to then like physically lay out what it is that you are trying to express through your values, through your copy, having a systems person in the background to filter through those values, that message, that connection that you want to have, um, like your copy and your systems backend and your client experience should all loop together, right?

It’s when we have these disconnects that We start feeling inauthentic, or like we’re out of integrity, or even if we don’t feel it, the people on the other side might feel that, um, whether it’s our partners or our clients. So I really love this idea of creating an ecosystem of, um, in everything you do. Um, yeah. Any, any thoughts on that? 

It’s I mean, I know that we met through Michelle. So shout out to Michelle because she’s watching. And, you know, I’ve partnered with her on projects and like having just quick, yeah, this is, I haven’t been prompted to do this actually, but like, just, just for an example, like I’ve worked with Michelle on a project and the way that, you know, when somebody has all of that kind of organized in a way that like, it’s just mind blowing, like I’ve learned so much from her in terms of like how to make every touch point, um, just killer, like absolutely killer.

And, and, I hope that we can partner in the future because having, um, brand messaging like already done and dusted makes a copywriter’s job so much easier and so much smoother because, um, it is like, it’s so much easier. That’s that’s where things really start and everything kind of sprouts from there and it’s not really possible to Go forward with any aspect even with even in with design like you need to have all that brand strategy done first And the messaging is a huge part of that which often gets overlooked um And I just, I love, I love that.

I love it when it all just kind of meshes together and it’s this beautiful, like, delicious cake of a project. Yes. I love the idea of a brand being a cake. I love dessert in any capacity. I’m hungry. I’m just like, yes, cake of delicious. Right. Because, I mean, there’s so much that goes into a brand, right?

Like it’s the entire experience, both from the business owner side and from the client side and everywhere in between. Yeah. And like, we started this conversation around ethical business and those ethics. interweave in every part too, right? Same there. They should show up in our copy, right? No icky sales.

Um, full values alignment in our copy, uh, speaking directly to an audience that we feel good serving, that we feel equipped to serve all of those things. And then the ethical part can also be way behind the scenes of the types of vendors that we choose, the types of client gifts that we send all of the things.

Um, so. Yeah, I really love this idea of, like a cake, it’s all these different ingredients and they all matter, right? Like, the quality of each could bring up or down the quality of the end product, which is the brand cake, right? Totally, absolutely. Like, no, absolutely. And I think it’s just something that is, I think every biz owner gets that point where they’re like, okay.

And they start to think on, in, on that level. Um, and it’s exciting because, you know, when you start to see like all the pieces coming together, it’s like, okay, this, this is really like something special that I’m making and putting out. I feel really good about it. Um, and that’s something that like, I’m, I’m really like as a year, you know, because it’s the end of the year and we’re kind of all reflecting and thinking about what’s what’s in store for for our businesses.

And it’s something that I’ve been like, looking really hard at is how to incorporate incorporate all of those elements to make like an even more. I’m just going to run with the cake theme here because we’ve already been doing it, so an even more delicious experience. Yeah, okay, so maybe it’s because we both like words.

Uh, I, I really like this cake analogy, so I want to take a step further of Our business is our own unique recipe, right? Like we could all be making cakes. We’re all making brands. We could all be offering, um, chocolate cakes, right? Like you could be, um, we could have three different, um, OBMs that we are looking at, right?

But they all have their unique spin on it. They might add cinnamon in the frosting. They might add maple syrup in the frosting, like whatever it is. They all bring their own special approach and that is their values. That is their voice. That is their ultimate mission. That’s their audience, right? Maybe they make cakes for diabetics.

Maybe they make cakes for children. Like it’s, we all have our own, um, Special thing that we’re bringing and it’s all an amalgamation That ends up in this brand container That is constantly evolving right if we might tweak the recipe we might change the system. We might change this logo We might change this core value, etc Um, we have michelle saying it’s visual branding the icing.

Yeah, I think definitely right it’s like the beautiful like fondant decorations and like Whether or not you have I don’t know like Things poked into it or the drip frosting or whatever it is, right? Yeah, like visual branding is like that first impression and then it’s everything inside that is the foundation beneath that Yeah, awesome.

No Yes, I’m just gonna be thinking about cake all right. Hey, yeah

And devolved a little bit, um, to that end. I wonder if we should wrap up, like, I’m not sure we can tap, uh, an amazing cake analogy. So is there anything else you’d like to add about ethical business, ethical marketing, um, copywriting that is personality based? Um, or if not, what is the best way that people can connect with you?

I would just say, just to like, Draw it back to what we were talking about at the beginning, you know, business is human and, you know, to keep that in mind when you’re, um, Dealing with people, but also when you’re dealing with yourself as a business owner, like, I’ve learned a lot of grace this year, like it’s been personal, personally, it’s been a huge year.

So, um, just remember that you’re, that you’re human and you can only, you can only like do so much. So, um, that’s what, that’s the kind of note I want to leave on, but you can find me at I’m on Instagram. That’s where I hang out most and, um, my website will eventually be done by the end of this year.

Hopefully. Uh, so yeah, find me. It’s so great to talk with you, Ashlee. Thank you so much for having me. Yes, I love this conversation. I’m so glad that cake was involved. Maybe one day. Real life in person cake, we can, we can put a piece of cake together. Um, yeah. And so for all things, personality packed copy, definitely reach out to Robyn for all things, values aligned, foundational brand messaging for confidence to create a brand that feels good and does good.

Reach out to me. Um, thank you so much for sponsorships. Um, and, uh, have a wonderful day, everyone. Thanks everybody. Bye bye.

Thanks so much for listening in. It’s a privilege to be in your ear and on your mind. This is the place where values spark action, so hopefully after today’s episode, you’re inspired to take confident, meaningful action toward your vision. If you want more rants, reflections, and resources straight to your inbox every Tuesday, head to ashleesang.com/newsletter.

It’s linked in the show notes and the description. And remember, your message matters. Thanks again, and I’ll catch you next week.