Daring To Do Things Differently with Mai-Kee Tsang | Episode 56

This is an unedited transcript and the timestamps don’t match exactly with the final audio. Thanks for your understanding!

14:05:55 Okay. Alright. So, Maykay, thank you so much for joining me for this conversation.
14:06:07 I wanna start. With our first question that I ask every single guest, what is your personality type, anything that resonates with you.
14:06:18 Oh yes. I think the the personality type that I really feel the most gravitational towards sharing right now is being a manifesto in terms of human design.
14:06:30 Hmm.
14:06:31 So I’d say out of all of the personality tests I’ve taken like like disk aniogram like you name it I find that the manifesto one was the one that I felt the most.
14:06:41 I felt like I finally understood myself. I think a huge part of it is also because your results come from putting in your birth information and that’s things that can’t change unlike any other personality test where it’s kind of like how much do you agree or disagreed with this statement today?
14:07:03 Now, of course, I appreciate that there are some technical tests that, that are made to be quite malleable because we do change as human beings, right?
14:07:11 So I don’t think my manifesto personality is deterministic in any way if anything for me it just felt like I finally understood why I think the way I do.
14:07:23 Yeah, that’s really interesting. I don’t meet a lot of manifesters, I feel.
14:07:28 I know a lot that let me know. You want connection. Yeah.
14:07:28 I feel like Oh, that’s so funny. It seems like a lot of my guests are manifesting generators.
14:07:36 I am a pure generator and I’m really not into the zodiac, but for some reason something about human design really does resonate.
14:07:46 Hmm.
14:07:47 And I’ve never noticed that. Factor of your birth time place never changes that’s a really interesting nuance that you flat there.
14:07:58 Hmm, yes, I think it’s the one thing that, well, I don’t want to feel like I’m always changing and even though that I know logically that I am but I like also again there are some people who like knowing these things about themselves and people who really don’t want to learn and for me I’ve always been one of those people’s like I’m always seeking to understand myself more.
14:08:19 Hmm.
14:08:19 It’s why we get, you know, obsessed with all of these quizzers so we can learn more about as well as humans.
14:08:22 Exactly. Yes, so as you reflect on who you are and where you’re going, what is your current trajectory, your vision for your life, for your business?
14:08:37 Hmm. I was actually speaking to a friend earlier today and I was talking about, 2,024 because at the time of this recording that’s the year that’s coming up, it’s just around the corner.
14:08:48 And I, when I really look back. My journey from 2020 in particular was a very significant year because it was the year of Black Lives Matter and It was when I truly had.
14:09:05 Hmm.
14:09:01 Such a profound way. Up call to my own unawareness and ignorance. Of like what I didn’t know about social justice and just really being able to have a conversation about that, being able to sit back, hold space and listen, understand, being able to respond.
14:09:19 I had none of those skills. And so that was a humongous wake-up call that has really been an ongoing learning because one of those things that you can’t you know learn for all stop and like you know it’s done and dusted no no it’s something that ever evolves and shifts and it’s being able to develop your resilience.
14:09:38 And develop your empathy, your understanding. To be able to navigate conversations that are quite tender depending on who it’s about.
14:09:47 So, 2,020 with a huge Wake up calls, 2021. With, the year where there was a very significant event in Atlanta that was very sensitive for those of the Asian community.
14:10:14 Hmm.
14:10:05 And for me, that was when I felt like I had to examine my own relationship with my culture and the community around that and that was an extremely tender year because it was also the year where I needed loss therapy.
14:10:22 It was also the year where I trained for my certification in trauma conscious leadership coaching. And so it was a lot of unpacking and unpacking and just like how you would unpack a box in a house.
14:10:35 Right, and save words hiding up or we need to clear out the attic. It’s not that straightforward sometime because we need to like see what comes up.
14:10:45 Like when we unpack that stuff is like is it something I want to keep? Is there something that I want to donate?
14:10:49 Is it something that that I just want to throw away full stop if a lot of There’s a lot of assessments that you pretty much need to make.
14:10:59 So that’s with real life unpacking. But when it comes to emotional unpacking that happens in therapy, in the learning experience and experiencing a nationwide tragedy is it’s a law it’s a very tender year so Spent 2021 like that.
14:11:16 2,022. I felt like there was a lot of recovery, a lot of self-discovery.
14:11:25 Hmm.
14:11:20 2023 I felt that I planted a lot of seeds in terms of developing a suite of digital products.
14:11:30 And it was when I had a conversation with a dear friend of mine who is someone I’ve met at the very beginning of my entrepreneurial journey.
14:11:37 I’d say back in 2015.
14:11:40 And he his he’s an absolute whiz when it comes to Facebook ads and he said to me may I want to print you money like he equals me and he was talking about this and when I really I really sat with myself.
14:11:58 Hmm.
14:11:55 And I thought I’m ready for Facebook ads, that and the other. I had to really get honest and say, do you know what?
14:12:03 I think that I spent the bulk of 2,023. Developing this suite of hopefully like fingers crossed like hopefully really great quality.
14:12:14 Hmm.
14:12:14 Products that can sell at scale. So that come 2024 and beyond I can really lean on my advocating affiliate partners to help me sell my products.
14:12:27 And to scale back a little on my one-on-one services so that I can reopen. That space where I can prioritize my physical health.
14:12:37 As well as my mental health which have both taken quite a hit over the last couple of years and I feel like I’m ready to do some deeper exploration and unlearning as well as learning.
14:12:51 So to answer your question. About where do I see my business going, I feel that. I’m really working towards living an intentional life and running an intentional business where nothing is that no shortcut that I’m taking to get something faster it’s more like I am I’m here to stay.
14:13:10 I’m not going anywhere. And I’m and to be able to do that I really need to take care of myself in my community who really They’ve told me time and time again how much they appreciate how well I’m model.
14:13:26 Hmm.
14:13:24 Sustainable visibility practices which is really take into account your capacity, your sense of safety, boundary values and of course still your bottom line because we are running businesses today.
14:13:37 So yeah, that’s what I would say to that.
14:13:44 Okay.
14:13:40 Okay, what a clear reflection on how these past multiple years have really cumulated and affected. Who you are now, where you’re going.
14:13:56 And it sounds like you’ve spent a lot of time and energy reflecting on, all right, these experiences happened, here’s what I’m doing with them.
14:14:05 Here’s what I’m doing because of them. And I’m so excited to see this.
14:14:10 2,024 vision unfold. Very exciting.
14:14:12 Thank you. Yeah, introspection is it’s not even second nature. It’s like first nature for me.
14:14:19 Yeah.
14:14:20 So all of us deep thinking. Yeah, I mean I’m also an introvert as well, which is something I also strongly identify as in relation to your first question, right?
14:14:25 Yeah. Yeah.
14:14:30 Very common practice that I’m very proud to have in my life.
14:14:42 Yes.
14:14:35 Yeah, and it does wonders for business for life, for being a human, right? I think all of us would benefit for more time.
14:14:46 Reflecting on ourselves and and our experiences. So with that, you sort of answered this question, and but I would love to know if anything specific comes to mind.
14:14:57 Was there one decision or experience that changed the trajectory of your life or that really in amalgamation, a culmination like you just described.
14:15:10 It’s a bit of both, so I’m just to clarify when you ask this question, change the trajectory of my life.
14:15:16 Did you do you mean like my life life or do you mean my business life?
14:15:18 Both for me they’re one in the same they’re 2 very separate things however you view your life.
14:15:25 A lot of people it’s you know quitting my corporate job a lot of people it’s changing from one on one to group.
14:15:32 Whatever experience or like, I got a medical diagnosis or whatever experience or decision. Felt like a big change.
14:15:41 Whatever you’re willing to share.
14:15:43 Okay, I know exactly what it is. And before I share it, I do want to say that I want to place a trigger warning for anyone who’s listening including yourself as well Ashley that I’ll be providing a mild mention of sexual abuse because that really does paint the picture as to who I am today.
14:16:03 So I will not go, I will not be going into detail because that’s you don’t actually need the detail and I’m really like going back to my my certification training I thought you don’t need with the detail but enough just to provide the context so I was in my second year of university studying a psychology so that was that is my degree in psychology and I was in a abusive relationship.
14:16:30 And though the one day where everything changed was when the assault happened. And I will never forget how I felt.
14:16:42 After the fact.
14:16:46 I realized that I had lived my entire life. Always putting my own needs. On the back burner.
14:16:54 Hmm.
14:16:56 Never being encouraged. To communicate what those needs are.
14:17:03 And to always self-silence. For someone else to feel better.
14:17:09 Hmm
14:17:11 And in this particular occasion That is extremely harmful. To realize that. Would choose a response at complete detriment to myself.
14:17:24 To actually make someone else feel better who shouldn’t feel better for the act they’ve done.
14:17:32 Hmm.
14:17:32 So I look that as look back at that as my personal biggest turning point because I remember looking at myself in the mirror.
14:17:41 Probably later that same day or probably the day after. I remember looking at my body. Looking at myself in the eye.
14:17:52 And thing. No one in this life. Is ever going to take my voice away again.
14:18:01 Hmm.
14:18:02 Whether that was my body’s voice or my my actual physical voice right now. That’s speaking.
14:18:08 I knew that I had to learn. And unlearn. A lot of things. So that I would always be able to speak my truth.
14:18:17 That is in service to me and to those around me because up until that point it was always the other person and not me but I really wanted to find a way that where I can communicate and have relationships with people where it was always a mutual benefit.
14:18:37 Yeah.
14:18:35 That may not always have to be 50 50 every single second of our relationship that’s standing. But knowing that that percentage shifts depending on what’s happening for one or the other person or a group dynamic.
14:18:47 And that has really Truly change the trajectory of my entire life and it’s how I communicate with my clients with my community with my you know, with my friends, with my family members, is actually the core lesson that my first mentor I ever had was this public speaking mentor.
14:19:06 He always said, always remember WIFT.
14:19:16 Hmm.
14:19:12 And that stands for what’s in it for them. And whenever you communicate with someone like that, where you really highlight those benefits that you’re the one writing this whatever communication is, whether it’s an email or a text or something like that.
14:19:25 When you’re able to communicate in that way and highlight that. But still hold some regard for yourself so that everyone walks away from the situation.
14:19:35 In a win-win. State, then you’re golden. And that to me has been like a wonderful way to keep practicing.
14:19:43 This way of being what I constantly choose myself. And others. As result of that.
14:19:51 First, thank you so much for sharing. And thank you for the perspective of it’s not either or.
14:19:59 You don’t have to, you know, selfishly choose yourself and you only think of yourself and it’s you or the highway you can also Be empathetic.
14:20:11 You can consider the way that your actions, your words affect other people because they absolutely do, regardless of intention.
14:20:18 We always have an effect on other people. So I personally feel it’s so important to think about what is that effect?
14:20:26 What are those consequences? And so I really love that. Balance that you described of what’s in it for them.
14:20:31 But also How does this impact me and my ability to show up for myself for other people? And so yeah, thank you so much for not only sharing that part of your life, but also a really tangible way that we can.
14:20:48 Reflect in any given situation where we’re showing up.
14:20:53 Thank you.
14:20:55 And Perhaps related to this idea of empathy, self-advocacy. Or perhaps completely on a different train of thought.
14:21:08 What are some of your guiding values that you live out specifically in your your business and perhaps based on life events or simply the way you want to be known as a business owner.
14:21:20 Okay, 3 things come to mind immediately. And they’re not single word values like how most people do they’re kind of like mini phrases and something that you may or may not know about me, that I will choose alliteration any day, every day.
14:21:39 Oh, you’re my kind of gal then.
14:21:38 If I can. Because when I actually look at a little of them, yep, all of them have like some element of alliteration in there.
14:21:52 Hmm.
14:21:48 So here we go. So number one. Is daring to do things differently. And that value is all about Just taking a step back and looking at what’s not working for a certain group of people because, for example, the status quo as a whole is upheld by a lot of oppressive systems.
14:22:07 And let’s be honest, some of some people, some groups, do benefit from them. Right?
14:22:13 But if you’re on the flip side when you’re not benefit thing from it, then that’s when it’s time for us to explore other options.
14:22:19 That can work for us instead. So My first guiding value is declaring to do things differently. And so an example of that.
14:22:27 At the time of this recording I’m planning my first ever Sustainable feasibility, not quite a summit thing I’m a bob.
14:22:37 Exciting, exciting.
14:22:37 That’s what I called it. And that is an example of they’re going to do things differently because there’s a lot of things that work in the summit systems like a traditional summit.
14:22:48 Like having 30 plus speakers for example or how people can earn a lot of profit from the doing a summit because they typically let a presentation run for about 2448 h and you can’t access them again unless you buy the all access pass.
14:23:08 So I understand why it works from that standpoint. But I’ve had conversations with people. They tell me that I did a lot of market research, I got on at least 20 you know market research calls and I had a lot of people fill in a very extensive market research form and they told me all the things, the things that they love about it, things that they really don’t like about it, what they would love to
14:23:31 be. Experiencing differently in a different experience. So that’s why I called it a not quite a summit that you were pop.
14:23:38 And yeah, doing things differently with that and I’ve already received some incredible feedback because at the time of this recording, I haven’t ran it yet, but just the process of the speaker application, the process of selecting the speakers.
14:23:52 I’ve been very transparent upfront about that. And even now people who are buying the early particular they’re telling me oh my gosh you’re doing this thank goodness it’s not like an a regular summit this truly is not a summit So that’s an example right there.
14:24:05 Of daring to do things differently. Just seeing what’s not working for everyone, because what’s gonna work is not gonna is going to work for another person vice versa and I’ve always been Someone who really wants to advocate for the people who really get seen really get acknowledged for the genuine and unique struggles that they face that isn’t often you know, taken care of in the online business world.
14:24:33 So. I’m gonna stop at the first one just to see like, did you have any reflection on that before I go for 2 and 3?
14:24:42 Okay.
14:24:38 You might have just written the episode title. Listeners will already know, but I really love that concept of daring to do things differently because I feel like that’s also so universal.
14:24:48 All of us could dare in different ways. All of us could consider what is different, what is the same.
14:24:54 So I really like how specific and universal that is at the same time. And thank you for the really specific example of the not so summit thing that you are creating.
14:25:04 Yeah.
14:25:05 Yeah, did you wanna share the other 2 or did you wanna stop there?
14:25:10 Lovely.
14:25:07 Oh, I definitely want to share the up too. So the second one, the second one is professional playfulness.
14:25:18 Oh
14:25:19 And this is all about I only had a a, what should you call it? I guess a temporary part-time job.
14:25:39 Hmm. Hmm.
14:25:58 Hmm.
14:25:31 Corporate. That’s my only experience I’ve ever had a corporate. And I remember feeling so buttoned up and so restricted just in the clothing alone not the work itself but just the clothing which is actually what plays a huge part in why such a value so what professional playfulness means to me is that you can get the work done and have a lot of fun doing it just however you like, speaking however you like.
14:26:02 And a huge way that I do this in my own business. So I run a a membership that’s called the co-working cove and it’s not actually about productivity like how most co-working spaces are, is very much about making space for meaningful work, whatever that is.
14:26:20 And And I was very upfront with my members. I was like, look, there have been days where I shall been a cardigan.
14:26:26 There can be days when I show up in the t-shirt. Other days I’m gonna be fully decked out in my Udi and an Udi is basically a oversized.
14:26:35 Blanket hoodie. It’s instead of a one, it’s basically a lanzi but without the bottom part.
14:26:41 Yeah.
14:26:41 So it’s like a big, it’s like a, it’s a wearable blanket.
14:26:44 Beautiful.
14:26:46 And my 2, I have right now, they have cats on them. One is like pink marshmallow color with bright blue caps on them.
14:26:56 Another one is the beige one with really cute different designs of orange cats all around it and I love that I don’t have to try away from that with my members I feel like I should be sponsored by the U.
14:27:10 S. Company because a lot of my members are you got one I’m gonna get one and what do you know the next chord they should they rock up in their earlys too
14:27:15 Well, you heard it here first, Yeah.
14:27:17 Yeah, And so professional playfulness is all about Doing what you say you do in terms of the service that you’re delivering that your product is delivering on what you what the marketing says, right?
14:27:35 That’s professional. Playfulness gets to be a passer and my community love they can show up in a non-buttoned-up way.
14:27:44 So that is number 2. Did you have a reflection on that before I wrap up with the last one?
14:27:50 Wow, just like this idea of seeking fun. Seeking playfulness, seeking joy is a recurring theme amongst my guests and something that’s really anything unexpected maybe if you come from the corporate world or if you’re just starting out like what work can be fun or you can make money and play but I think the more seasoned you become the more confident in who you are.
14:28:14 As a brand and the community that you’re building around you, the more fun and joy and play you can inject and the more successful, you know, quote-unquote that ultimately makes you.
14:28:25 So yeah, I love that also the combination of professional playfulness, right? It’s not either or again, it is both combined and how they leverage each other.
14:28:36 Yes. 100%. And that brings me to my last value. It’s Compassionate Change Making.
14:28:45 Those are powerful words right there, both individually and combined.
14:28:50 Yes, I have been on the receiving end of council culture. I have witnessed a lot of council culture for causes.
14:29:00 That are big, way bigger than me. And I’ve always thought to myself, I truly don’t believe that.
14:29:07 Genuine change is rooted from shame. I mean, I could be wrong, but again, this is my opinion, right?
14:29:14 And so I’ve always. Again, it’s not either or. Everything with me has always been and always will be a spectrum.
14:29:22 Of just really working at it in layers and pieces in a way that’s really sustainable. So an example of this.
14:29:31 One of It’s something that the thing is we have diversity, equity and inclusion and belonging is one of those things that I’ve always felt that if I put that on my website it’s almost as if that I feel like it’s a value that you should feel when you experience anything in my business, not something that you see, it’s a show of us to tell.
14:29:55 I’ve always believed that and so this is really integrated in this compassionate change making. So I’m on an ever everlasting journey of learning how to really, you know, build in these practices into my business.
14:30:07 So, but for example, I do time zone inclusivity. So instead of only running live elements of an offer for one part of the world.
14:30:17 I’ll make sure to split up my time and I do that in every single live offer that I have.
14:30:22 Hmm. Yeah.
14:30:21 Even for my thing, well, Bob, you know, it happens at this time this time to reach different parts of the world as one small example.
14:30:28 But is something that is felt by my community. When I do something called cup of catch-ups, that is when I send an exclusive invitation only for those on my email list.
14:30:37 To book a call with me I open up 1 h of my time I split it into 3 20 min calls.
14:30:44 This invitation goes out at complete random every single month. It’s not predictable. What’s the only predictable thing about it is that it’s coming at some point in the but I will always change the day.
14:30:52 Yeah.
14:30:55 I will always change the time that it happens. I’ll always look at the previous 2 months and see, okay, which time zone did I not cover yet in this quarter?
14:31:04 And I’ll always rotate that. It’s one of those things that my community really deeply appreciate because they’ve told me and the thing is That took time to integrate.
14:31:14 I had to learn like which parts of the day could I really feel present to run these calls? And so that’s where the compassion comes in.
14:31:23 The compassion is for yourself as well as the people around you. And so when people They get so hung up with not doing everything quote unquote right straight away.
14:31:32 I’m always like trying to be assured them like, look, you’re doing something. I’ve always believed that when you know better That’s when you do better.
14:31:40 When you know better and still choose not to, that’s when it’s a problem in my opinion, right?
14:31:46 And I believe that I quote from Maya Angelou, I believe that quote comes from her.
14:31:52 I think so. Yeah, I think so.
14:31:53 Yeah, like my Angela, there are 2 quotes that I’ve always like referencing that one in Gaza.
14:32:01 But yes, and I feel that my community know that when they’re in a space with me That is okay for them to make mistakes.
14:32:07 It’s okay for them to stumble because even if they fall, they are around other people who get it.
14:32:13 They understand. And they’re really here to uplift each other for trying and always on a quest to do just a bit better each time.
14:32:22 In a way that’s not performative, but truly a sustained action. So compassionate change making is the last one of the 3 that I truly live my business.
14:32:32 And life by as the whole.
14:32:34 I think the time zone example is So perfect to latch onto because when we think of DEI when we think of accessibility.
14:32:48 Sometimes we feel like it’s this big scary web and it can be right like it can go from the big picture to the tiny details and so I think for all of us to be.
14:32:58 Compassionate and aware of our audience like you are. It sounds like you spend a lot of time listening to your audience and taking into consideration.
14:33:06 Okay.
14:33:08 Hey, I could mix up my time zones. Is such a simple but profound act. And then one thing that you said that really jumped out at me.
14:33:18 And is so aligned with my approach to business and values is that show not tell. Oh, well, I could, I could slap up diversity inclusion, diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging.
14:33:34 Hmm.
14:33:31 Or I could make people feel it, right? And I’m of the of the opinion where it’s it’s both be super explicit with your values and be so integrated is the word you use be so integrated and make them be felt so implicitly that no matter how you show up, where you show up, what it is you’re writing or saying or doing, your values will always be felt.
14:33:59 That level of consistency is how you build trust. It’s how you build a reputation. It’s how you build this.
14:34:07 Cohort of advocates around you and and these were all such beautiful examples of how that can play out really simply but also on a very deep level.
14:34:20 Hmm. Thank you for acknowledging that. And as she reminds me, when I when I really started to be super explicit with my time zone inclusivity, which whichever offer it was applied to.
14:34:34 I remember there was one of my clients who is based in Australia and she told me in a DM on Instagram Make a thank you.
14:34:45 It’s so nice to finally be thought of.
14:34:50 Hmm.
14:34:51 And that has stuck with me for years. I think she told me that back in 2021 when I ran a particular offer.
14:34:59 And I will always remember that because I always want everyone in my community to feel that exact same thing. Thank you for thinking of me.
14:35:16 Yeah.
14:35:09 And like full transparency. I’m never gonna get it perfect. There are some people who are either night owls or early birds and none other times I offer because I offer 2 main times where I know I operate very well.
14:35:21 There are gonna be times where I will miss the mark. And all I can say is that I am not going to over promise something that I know I can deliver on.
14:35:29 And I’d rather do the opposite. I’d rather under promise and over deliver, you know.
14:35:28 Hmm.
14:35:34 And so I’m here to say that. This solution is not going to be perfect for everyone because we simply cannot meet every single person’s needs.
14:35:43 But You can do your part with communicating what you are doing and you will let other people decide whether you are a good fit for them to learn from or not.
14:35:52 Absolutely. You gave so many really clear examples. My next question is generally how have your values sparked action in your business?
14:36:07 You flag multiple actions for all of your values. Do you have any overarching thoughts around this or any other specific?
14:36:15 Actions that you feel like are unique to you or would be really interesting for other business owners to implement.
14:36:21 Hmm. I think it actually circles back to something that you’ve already said. So I feel like it’s just it’s almost like a tang on a bow on the things that we just talked about.
14:36:31 Beautiful. Let’s do it.
14:36:38 Hmm
14:36:32 There, something that you said about being super explicit. With your values right so I do have to give a hat tip to one of my dear friends play a player no Claire I was combining confining the Claire Panathea, they’re a dear friend of mine and They told me about being super explicit values and how to communicate that in your office.
14:37:01 So this actually and an example that may or may not be available to see at the time of this release or when this episode is out but just so that I can give you a little bit of a demonstration.
14:37:13 I learned from Claire how to hone in on what those values are and how to express them in a way that’s going to either call in or kind of like repel people into your space.
14:37:26 Depending on what it is they offering. So I use this for the first time. In why speaker application process.
14:37:32 So this is the first time that I’m browning a digital event, my not quite a summit thing, we’re both all about sustainable visibility.
14:37:40 And I didn’t just want to hand pick people from my network, which I knew I could, but I wanted to know who else out there, like who are the hidden gems that I’ve yet to see and who I would love to add for so long as their application really aligns.
14:37:55 But I wanted Like the whole point of sustainable visibility is really about supporting those who aren’t often supported in the online business space when it comes to being seen, being acknowledged for the work they do.
14:38:06 And so I had to be very, very, very clear about who I wanted applying. So I had a like a value section before they even can click on the application itself.
14:38:18 Hmm.
14:38:18 They had to read that and it was things like. You’re you’re dedicated. To diversity, equity and inclusion and anti-opressive.
14:38:29 Business that you are committed to that. Right? And like, like, however they show it would have been based on when I actually do my due diligence and research there.
14:38:38 The social media, their website to see if there’s any evidence of that. And also because full transparency I’m on the LGBTQA AP plus spectrum.
14:38:49 My partner and I, you know, we’ve been together for nearly 14 years now and Thank you.
14:38:52 Wow. Yeah.
14:38:55 And I wanted the space that I create with this community to be one where we are celebrated and loved for who we are.
14:39:04 Not just because of who we’re with, but like who we are, it doesn’t change whether or not we’re a great person or not based on who we’re with.
14:39:16 Hmm.
14:39:12 So I needed to know that people were pro. For this. Oh gosh, the last one actually escaped my brain.
14:39:22 Yeah.
14:39:21 Oh, no, no, no. So. That trans women of women. Transmit on and anyone.
14:39:28 Hmm.
14:39:35 Hmm.
14:39:29 Within and beyond the gender binary. Valid. And welcome in our space. So that is a very real example of how those values were integrated and who I want to call in.
14:39:44 Like who is going to be speaking here because it’s going to give me an indication. Of who they’re going to bring from their community.
14:39:50 Yeah.
14:39:51 Knowing that they practice those values that they really believe in the same things that we do. That is something that is I did that for the first time.
14:39:58 It was super scary, but the kind of feedback that I got from that was mind blowing that they were like, oh my gosh, like I’ve never ever seen this.
14:40:09 And I even received a message from a past client who actually told me because of those values they weren’t actually going to be good.
14:40:18 But the fact that they said that to me, told me that they’re doing some some of their own introspection because they realize, oh wait, I’m not a great fit actually when I see see I’m not aligned with all of these beliefs and these values that you have but they told me anyway not to shame me not to shame themselves but just to really acknowledged and own up to the fact that there is a missing
14:40:41 alignment piece there and that we could still be in each other’s spaces and then we just simply wouldn’t support each other in this particular case.
14:40:49 So what you said earlier about being very explicit with your values, I think that’s very important. And I think the even more important thing.
14:40:56 Is allowing people to experience. The explicitness of those values. By you actually living and breathing it in as many aspects as possible in your business and in your life.
14:41:10 Oh, yes, I have a whole workshop around living out your brand values. So you are speaking my language.
14:41:12 Okay. Okay. Yes.
14:41:24 And repelling. That is what our values do. That is what we want. And you went one step further when you said, because I know these people are going to be bringing their people, right, their audience, their orbit of influence.
14:41:38 And that is how business works. That is how relationships of any capacity work. And so it’s really important to consider not just the person but also the reputation and the brand and the audience that they have built.
14:41:53 And I talk about hitching your wagon to someone else’s, especially when you’re the host.
14:41:56 Okay.
14:41:58 You have so much of your reputation and trust hanging on, who you bring into the fold, but also anytime you apply to speak on someone else’s stage.
14:42:08 Anytime you do a freebie swap, anytime you do any sort of collaboration, or give a shout out to any other business owner.
14:42:17 You are at least in some capacity advocating for their values or vouching for them as a human as a brand.
14:42:33 Yeah.
14:42:25 And so thank you for that really specific example. And I love that you gave values specific examples as you were explaining your values and then this is an overarching one right this is action based on my values as a collective.
14:42:39 So thank you so much for these really concrete examples.
14:42:43 I’m clearly on fire today. Thank you for asking. You’re very, very amazing questions that really helped to reel all of this out.
14:43:01 Hmm.
14:42:51 And what just a quick note there, this is the precise reason. Why I call my people advocating affiliate partners like the people who actually register to become partners of mine, I always emphasize advocating affiliate.
14:43:06 I only want people who actually genuinely advocate for the way that I do business and the way that my offers work and what my office are doing for them.
14:43:09 Hmm.
14:43:12 So I have offers around podcasting, about co-working, about the cup of catch-up strategy that talked about earlier.
14:43:18 I really want them to advocate. For why I’m doing it, how I’m doing it, and how they’ve gotten value from it, because I completely agree.
14:43:26 I do a lot of podcasting, it’s one of my core visibility strategies. And whenever I’m saying yes to an interview, I’m telling my audience that to a degree, like you said, right?
14:43:34 I’m advocating for the person who I’m collaborating with. And that’s a lot of trust that’s built over the time and time again.
14:43:43 Okay.
14:43:40 My community really keep me in check. In a way that’s always very compassionate. Because I made a very grand mistake in my emails a couple weeks back and I remember I was reached out to in a very constructive, compassionate way.
14:43:54 And versus a full-on hate email, you know, that can happen. I’ve had I’ve had those too, but.
14:44:01 In general my community know I’m always committed to learning and learning to try and do better and it’s because I create a space for them to do the exact same thing.
14:44:10 Yes, yes, that walking the walk and talking the talk. I have a whole blog post I recently wrote about feedback and how it can be so, so valuable.
14:44:23 And yes, it’s so, so scary, but also when it’s our people, when you’re listening properly.
14:44:23 It is.
14:44:26 It is so effective. So I’ll be sure to link that. I also want to be sure to link Claire.
14:44:34 Yes.
14:44:30 And so after after our conversation you can send me those details. So You said that you started your entrepreneurial journey around 2,015, I think. So quite a while ago.
14:44:45 What’s been the biggest lesson that you’ve learned as an entrepreneur?
14:44:50 Oh, this is hard. I’ve learned so many lessons. But the thing that definitely comes to mind is Noing which cost.
14:45:02 Is more expensive to you.
14:45:05 Hmm, yeah.
14:45:07 So traditionally, when we think of cost, we often think of finances, right? And that is one of them.
14:45:14 But I think a lot more now about mental health. Energetic costs because whenever I’m making a decision Whenever I say yes or no, I’m always factoring in what is the cost of this.
14:45:26 So for example, when I talked about the, you know, a traditional summit system. I understand why it works.
14:45:33 It’s intentional, overwhelm that’s built into the system to really kind of like make it seem like a relief from the pressure.
14:45:41 When you get an all access path. I understand why it works and like it’s an incredible boost in you know profit from that way of doing things and if it works for you and you’re cool with that, that’s you, that this is one of the things that I want to do differently because for me the cost that comes with doing that.
14:45:59 Is a I’m overwhelming my community unnecessarily. I’m breaking the trust with me because that is completely opposite to the way that I do everything else.
14:46:11 And is genuinely one of those things that will make it really hard for me to sleep that night. Knowing that I’ve intentionally caused more pain.
14:46:19 Instead of providing a more pleasurable solution. So really understanding yourself. And I do want to say, want to take a step back here.
14:46:26 Like I am, I am privileged to a degree. I know that. I’m I’m British born. I am assisted.
14:46:34 I am able-bodied. I can speak English, you know, pretty fluently. I know I have those privileges and I also know I have marginalized identities.
14:46:42 I am of Asian descent. I am a trauma survivor. I have C PTSD.
14:46:47 I have anxiety. This, that, and the other. And so that’s why being able to take a step back and look at your own kind of cocktail of identities that are a mix of privilege and a mix of marginalization is really going to indicate to you what your costs are and which ones you can take on and which ones you really can’t.
14:47:07 And I know for myself because I do have a history of like, you know. I was open earlier.
14:47:12 I said like I’ve had therapy so there’s a lot of mental health support that I need and it’s a huge reason why moving forward in 2,024 I’m scaling back on services because I want to prioritize my mental health because that is a very very very big cost.
14:47:26 To me and it’s not something that I’m willing to sacrifice or you know, compromise on at all.
14:47:32 And so if that means that I take another cost elsewhere if it means that I can save that then I will so my biggest lesson is knowing which costs more expensive.
14:47:44 Yes, that is so important because We only have so much money for sure. We need, we need all the money, right?
14:47:52 Yeah.
14:47:54 And money makes the world go round. But also we only have so much energy. We only have so much time.
14:47:59 So of course sometimes it makes sense to spend the money. Sometimes it makes sense to spend the time and energy and sometimes it does not and really getting in again with that self-reflection or even sometimes outside perspective.
14:48:14 I’m currently working with Ashley King. She’s an episode 4, I think. I’ll be sure to link it in the show notes.
14:48:20 And but I know my limits in my own ability to be accountable to myself. I know I have some time and energy and money leaks in my business and so I reached out to her and said, hey.
14:48:34 Okay.
14:48:32 Can you look at this from your perspective? Can you show me what I could or should be doing and having that person outside my own head and heart.
14:48:42 Is going to make me so much more accountable. Then me sitting down and creating a quote-unquote action plan.
14:48:48 And so yes to self-reflection. Yes to outside perspective and everything in between based on the situation that you’re in.
14:48:57 Yes, definitely. Would it be helpful if I gave a tangible example of the cost thing but in a lifestyle perspective?
14:49:03 Always, yeah.
14:49:05 So this is like very present day right now because literally from yesterday night I became overnight obsessed with understanding and learning how to construct.
14:49:15 A raw food diet for my cat. So I’m a cat mom I have 2, Loki and Luna.
14:49:19 Yeah.
14:49:19 And so if I were to apply the lesson of knowing which cost is more expensive. So the reason why I really got into it is because unfortunately my little Moona she needs another dental procedure.
14:49:30 Note, another dental procedure. And they are incredibly expensive. It is about 400 to 900, that’s the range just for one single dental procedure for a cat.
14:49:42 And I love I love my baby so much. So that is the cost. Right now, right? But knowing that I actually could have used that 4 to 900 pounds.
14:49:52 To change up their diet to incorporate bulk buying of like bony. And bony meats where they can actually have their quote unquote nature’s toothbrush to help with that because upfront it seems like compared to Kibble and commercialized canned food.
14:50:09 In comparison, fresh food, of course, can be more expensive. But in the long run, what is even more expensive is going to cost my baby’s like, you know, their life span will shift to a shorter one if I don’t take care of their health.
14:50:22 Then that bills are going to keep building higher and higher if I don’t change something about their lifestyle and a diet.
14:50:27 So that’s an example, very tangible lifestyle example right there. The cost upfront for fresh food, the best is commercialized, kipple and cat food.
14:50:37 It is more but in the long run. The bigger cost is if I lose them sooner and I don’t want to.
14:50:41 I want them to live with me as long as possible. So there’s an example right there about knowing which costs more expensive.
14:50:48 Yeah, and that’s so true for our own health, right? That’s so true. I’ve had it.
14:50:52 Yes, oh yeah, I keep it flying just to cats. I like.
14:51:01 No.
14:50:54 Yeah. I’ve had to keep my human child home from daycare 2 weeks in a row because they have literally 4 different illnesses going around daycare and the cost I thought to pay for daycare whether or not she goes but the cost of my energy of both of our health, I always get whatever she gets of the doctors visits, the time, the mood swings, all of the things of her getting sick.
14:51:26 Yes.
14:51:16 Is so much more than the sunk cost of the daycare I would already be paying for. And, and so Yes, health in general is almost always one of those things where the money for whatever it is you need, especially if you have that privilege to be able to prioritize it.
14:51:35 Oh, you gotta make that choice.
14:51:56 Hmm?
14:51:37 Yes, 100%. And we can start small and sustainable because you know one of the biggest for humans and or like if we’re pet parents it’s like oh gosh but this is so much more expensive than the process version right but then start small like something really cheap can be vegetables, and especially once that are in season and for them in the context of the raw diet for my cats going to the
14:52:03 butcher’s and you know getting those offcuts are so much more cheaper than the regular cuts that would get in the supermarket, which we can still feed them.
14:52:09 Hmm.
14:52:10 But it doesn’t have to be the main bulk of the mule. So that’s one example there how you can really.
14:52:15 All it takes is just a little bit of research and knowing what your intentions are to really sustain this long-term action.
14:52:22 Yes. So literally, segue’s perfectly into my next question. What advice do you have for women, women identifying anywhere on the spectrum?
14:52:35 Do you want to be inclusive as you mentioned that’s so important to you? What advice do you have for people to take confident, meaningful action in their life in their business wherever they’re showing up?
14:52:50 It’s pretty much everything I said, but if I would like to sum up into one meat tidy little bow.
14:52:57 It’s this.
14:52:59 Focus on depth. Over breath.
14:53:05 And what I mean by that is focus on the deep action that is going to really make a big difference anyway.
14:53:14 It’s kind of like when people say I want to make a big impact, I’ve always said you know had to to sax buckler who actually helped you with this nuance but he said that I want to make a deeper difference because all deep difference is big, but not all big impact is deep.
14:53:30 And so I’ve always believed in focusing on small things that a time. To a significant depth because ultimately that’s what’s gonna reach people.
14:53:39 So if we think of the no like trust factor, when you have earned the trust of people very deeply, they’re going to recommend you.
14:53:49 This is why affiliate partnerships are something that I’m really honing in on because I know I’ve taken the time to really get to know my community and my collaborators, etc.
14:53:56 And it’s because they’ve trust me, is they’re going to help me reach. More people.
14:54:01 So it’s kind of like taking away the pressure, like say your goal was to have 1 million customers, for example, right?
14:54:10 Instead of you reaching 1 million people on your own. Have a small aid team of people who really believe in you who are in a line values, aligned audience, they’re going to help you reach that 1 million so much more.
14:54:22 Easier that takes the pressure of you and it’s because of the trust that you’ve earned.
14:54:27 It’s because of the depth that you put into the relationship. That they are going to help you with that breath anyway.
14:54:39 Hmm.
14:54:33 Hmm, yes, that, principle of a thousand true fans. And that reminds me, of course, of brand messaging.
14:54:45 Especially when someone else is advocating on your behalf, whether it’s a affiliate partners, whether it’s past clients, whether it’s, you know, people who have hosted you on stages on podcasts wherever wherever you have built relationships with people.
14:54:58 The, it’s a game of telephone, right? The message gets diluted when it’s filtered through someone else.
14:55:05 The message gets diluted when it’s filtered through someone else. And so being as clear as possible from the get-go being being as explicit in our values as possible from the get go makes it so that our advocates are able to be so much more effective, so much more consistent.
14:55:21 They’re able to put their own color, their own spin, their own experiences on you and your brand.
14:55:28 But at the end of the day, it still is representing you in the way you want to be represented and that’s so much easier said than done but that that starting from a really really strong clear Foundation makes it so much easier.
14:55:43 I couldn’t agree more and that actually really reminds me of the second. Maya Angelouquo that I pretty much live by is that people will forget what you said.
14:55:52 They’ll forget what you did. They’ll never forget how you made them feel.
14:55:55 Hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. Yes.
14:56:05 Yeah.
14:56:01 So as we, you mentioned, tying things up in a bow twice now. So as we tie up this episode with a nice neat bow, what is a message?
14:56:11 And in any capacity, what’s a message that matters to you?
14:56:16 Oh. Well, I will say it’s not my own message, but it’s a message that I had printed out on the day that I left my last job.
14:56:26 It was the first of June, 2018 because between 2,01520 18 in my journey that I shared before.
14:56:36 That was when I was still part-timing. I was like part-timing different things.
14:56:40 I was a barista as a part like event coordinator. Like I was a lot of things that the first of June, 2,018 was the day that I truly ventured out so low.
14:56:51 So this is actually a quote. From Jim Kerry who actually gave a speech. I believe it was at Stanford and I had it printed out because for me it’s a message that has always and it says
14:57:04 You can still fail at the things you don’t want. So you might as well take a chance on doing what you love.
14:57:12 Oh yes, what a way to end the episode. If people are loving this idea of compassion and change and belonging and trying.
14:57:29 If they are loving this idea of sustainable visibility, how can they connect with you?
14:57:33 Oh, there are a couple of ways. So number one, if you really like the behind the scenes like as it’s happening sort of content then I’m very very open with my email list so you can go to make hath.
14:57:47 Dot com forward slash inside insights and that’s literally where I pull back the curtain of my online business as I navigate some you know interesting as situations where I share my ideas as they are happening in real time and it’s also where you can receive one of those exclusive invitations as they are happening in real time.
14:58:10 And it’s also where you can receive one of those exclusive invitations to potentially book a call with me when I send out that time.
14:58:22 And it’s also where you can receive one of those exclusive invitations to potentially book a call with me when I send out that, cup of catch ups, call once a month. It’s when again, I have 1 h, split it into 3, 20 min calls.
14:58:26 The invitation goes out
14:58:26 Awesome. Okay, everything you mentioned plus a few other goodies will be linked in the show notes.