Normalizing Peace & Profit For Women Founders with Emily Dean | Episode 103

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

So I’m so excited, Emily, to officially talk to you today.

Thanks so much for joining me.

Emily Dean

Thank you for having me. I’m I’m so excited to be chatting with you on this gloomy rainy day. It’s just it was the perfect time for a cozy conversation.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Oh, lovely. And like, hopefully. Whoever is listening to this, you’re either on like a beautiful walk in the sunshine or curled up on a gloomy day.

Like whatever the weather is, hopefully it’s exactly what you’re needing and wanting.

Emily Dean

Yes, definitely. I do love a rainy.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Yeah. So on this podcast, we talk to women, for women, in business, all about purpose and progress. I’m so deeply curious about why we do what we do and how we communicate what we care so much about.

And I know that is absolutely your wheelhouse too. So with that, I would love to know what’s your current elevator pitch?

Something you’d say at a networking event or in Zoom chat, hey, I’m Emily, I do, you know, what’s your pitch?

Emily Dean

Yeah, I love this question because it just, I think it took me a while to step into this. But, so yeah, the way that I answer that now, which feels most authentic to me, is that, you know, I run a boutique brand.

Marketing consultancy called Bolton Bloom. And I also help purpose-driven founders evolve their brand strategy in a way that they can scale without self-sacrifice.

So we’re not getting rid of peace or profit here. And what I like to think of it as is like where vision meets grounded strategy and with a side of like well-being and nervous system care.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Oh, I love every single part of that. All of those elements are so magical, a little bit mystical, but then also so, so pragmatic.

I we were talking about the magic and the pragmatic before we even hit record. But I feel like in business, it is especially entrepreneurship, solopreneurship, being a founder.

It is such a journey of self-discovery. You see all of the flaws. You highlight all of the strengths. You realize all of the negative self-talk and bad habits that you have, most of which are a direct hindrance to yourself.

Your self-care and your emotional regulation. And I feel like it is such, you are being of such service to your clients and to the entrepreneurship community in general to be focusing on those elements paired with the very pragmatic and important and sort of lever-pulling elements like messaging and marketing.

And so I’d love to know how and why you settled on that combo.

Emily Dean

Yeah. You know, I think I really started out by, and I’m in my second year as a business owner.

So like props to me. That’s a milestone in my mind. But, you know, when I started out, I was really just really wanting to do, wanting to work with women and help them build cool , to be honest.

And then once I really started digging into like, what are the unique challenges that. Women in business face. It’s just like there is a never ending sea of difference than how we see like modern corporate culture.

And I came from a corporate background. I was in New York City in like a corporate marketing job for 15 years.

But I came across this stat that has just been like, keeping me up at night. And it’s that over a third of entrepreneurs hit burnout.

And when you break it down, 52% of female founders are carrying heavy loads of anxiety and depression. Like this is not like a fringe.

Like this is the norm for women in business. And I think it’s very, you know, not to say that that men don’t experience this as well, but women very much over indexed on struggling with mental health issues when going through business.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Yeah, I think women especially again, not exclusively by any stretch, but Yeah. So traditionally, stereotypically, societally, women also carry that mental load of the home, of caregiving, whether or not they have children or aging parents or whatever it is.

And I have built a business child-free, and I have built a business with two small children, and it is a whole different ballgame.

Just the emotional regulation alone. I’m learning a lot about emotional regulation from my social media feed, and especially my ADHD rabbit holes.

And parenting is a trigger, for sure. But also, when you are pouring so much of yourself, of your identity, of your purpose, of your livelihood into this business that you’re creating, of course, it can be emotionally charged.

We put so much pressure, sometimes rightfully so, on our ability to make an impact. Make a living, make a reputation, build a legacy, whatever it is that we are after.

Or, you know, people like me, all of the above, please, full force, 100% all the time. Thank you. So I think it’s an important conversation to be had, even if it stops at the conversation point.

Even if you do nothing about it, at least that level of awareness and, oh, you’re not alone in this, matters so much.

Emily Dean

Yes, and awareness is the key, right? And I always say, like, some women build businesses, some build families, and some do both.

And I am childless by choice, but I have, I just, the amount of respect I have for women who are doing both at the same time is insurmountable.

And knowing that, you know, women just naturally, we have this kind of maternal other focus, right? Whether, you know, you identify with being a more masculine woman or being more feminine, you know, it doesn’t, it doesn’t matter.

We are. Naturally other focused. We are caretakers largely, right? So we often forget to put ourselves at the center of our business.

So that takes a huge toll over a period of time. So even though I am focused on building brand, to me, it’s so connected to our sense of identity that if there’s a way that we can put you as the founder as the nucleus of your business and normalize that your well-being should be a core KPI, to me, that feels like I’m serving in some way.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

I love the sentence you just said, your well-being as a core KPI. That is like the perfect bridge of you have the corporate chops.

You speak the language, you know what you’re doing. And also, well-being can be measured. It can be felt. And it absolutely permeates, regardless of how well you’re measuring it, how well you’re attending to it.

Poor well-being absolutely is affecting your ability to focus, to pour into your clients, to have initiative for the new exciting project that maybe would boost your revenue and make your business more sustainable or stable or whatever it is.

So I love that. I won’t even say balance, but just that pairing between, okay, yes, we are getting down to business, but also well-being is a part of that business.

Emily Dean

Yes. And we can, and both can exist, right? That peace and profit, they can exist. They’re not mutually exclusive.

And I think that’s important to normalize for women too, because we don’t necessarily like, it doesn’t have to be one or the other.

It can be, it can be both. It’s just that, you know, we have to be mindful about how we get there.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

So how do we get there?

Emily Dean

I would love, oh, like, how do you integrate?

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

So, okay, obviously, you’re working with your clients on marketing, on messaging, on strategy. Obviously, that is part of it.

But how do you integrate this wellness element?

Emily Dean

Yeah. Well, so I take something that it’s kind of like, I really feel like it’s soul level work. Like when building a brand identity, like, I think it’s really a lot of the founders that I’ve seen are building it off of someone else’s vision, or at least, you know, what they’ve seen on social media, how they think businesses should be run, how they think brands should be built, without actually, like tapping into their intuition, and stepping into like, this is what I want to bring into the world.

And this is why I want to do it, right? So I think there’s just like, I spend a lot of time in that space.

So the core thing that I do with clients is I really take them through. This four-week container where we identify the most core elements of your brand identity, your, you know, mission, vision, values, your audience offer, and then your core message.

So to me, those are like the sole level ingredients that go into your brand. And you should be at the center of that, right?

So I think when you work with big agencies or big, like, branding corporations, it’s like, it becomes less of what you’re about and more about, like, what culture is reflecting back to you.

So I just want to empower people to put themselves first in that part of the process. And then also, I’m in the process of building a course right now, a cohort, or we’re doing this in a group of, like, five to six founders.

And part of that work is, you know, grounding and meditation and breath work. So those are things that we’re kind of, like, naturally building muscles around when we make these kinds of big.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Yeah, I think that idea of hiring a big branding agency because it seems fancy or it seems like they know what they’re doing.

I can see the appeal of that. You know, the testimonials, the logos that they have that they’ve worked with in the past, the big price tag shows, oh, they must know what they’re talking about.

And yet I can imagine just based on having subcontracted with many larger agencies, how they’re so rigid sometimes, not bashing all agencies here, but sometimes they’re so process driven, so our approach driven, so market research driven that the founder and their unique vision is lost in the process.

And I think a lot of times… Not always, again, but sometimes, you know, it’s kind of same thing, right?

Like they kind of turn out the same thing for all their clients because, you know, they know what works.

And, you maybe it would work to some extent. But would it be that true reflection of who you are as a founder?

What your vision is? The impact you can make? Does it really tease out what makes you special? What makes you tick?

And for me, it’s that Venn diagram of not only you and your vision and what you believe in and how you view the world, but your perfect fit people.

Like really what they’re looking for, what they want from you. It’s the same reason that Who Gives a Crap, which is like a sustainable toilet paper company, is able to have a blog about, yes, toilet issues, but also able to have posts about date nights and International Women’s Day.

And all kinds of things that are seemingly out of left field, but they know their audience. They know what their audience wants.

And they’re able to like fill those spaces and inject humor and voice and value in that way. So I just think there’s something to be said.

Emily Dean

Yeah, and Ben and Jerry’s, right? Another great example. It’s like, it’s an ice cream company. And yet you see like how purpose driven their founder is, and he’s taking a stand on a lot of cultural issues.

And so it’s, I just think we’re seeing, because there’s kind of been over a period of time, this erosion of trust with brands, and also with big agencies, right?

You have like your, your big, what now three advertising agencies. And so there’s a lot of like, groupthink, like happening in this space.

And I think we’re going to start to see, well, we already are starting to see a lot more like founder focused brands coming in to and being able to become a disruptor in their industry, because they have a strong POV.

And it’s led by the founder, I think, like, we want to see the founder and What their values are, and if it aligns with ours before we pull out our wallet and make a decision, because inherently, you know, that’s a very, it’s, we vote with our wallet, right?

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Yes, that is one of my core beliefs. Yeah, the way we spend our dollars really does matter. Sure. And just to that end of knowing the human behind the brand, we’re business, we’re, we’re humans doing business with humans.

And so yes, like you talked about scale at the top of this episode, we want to grow our businesses, right?

Not necessarily to infinity. Sometimes we don’t want to have the whole shebang. You know, solopreneurs like us, what would be the next level?

Probably to have a small agency. What would be the next level after that? A big agency, right? So like, we don’t always necessarily want to completely scale and change in that way.

But ultimately, we are always humans doing business with other humans. And so if we’re able to humanize even bigger brands, it goes so far.

And even, yeah, like brands taking on a human-esque persona even. You know, you think of the Wendy’s Twitter, for example, or X or whatever it’s called these days.

But like, originally, they got famous with their Twitter and how they suddenly had a voice. And, you know, am I buying Wendy’s?

No, don’t eat fast food. But I think it’s a great example of humanizing, humanizing a very, very, very big, sort of decentralized, giant franchise.

Also, I just want to plug your Instagram because you have commentaries on big brands, well, big and small brands like this in the wild all the time.

And they’re always, like, so spot on. So definitely follow Emily because her really, really concise and… And insightful analysis of like what brands are doing.

It’s just like, it’s gold.

Emily Dean

So thank you so much. That means the world. I actually used to do kind of that in my corporate past life.

So I like really enjoy doing it for the audience that I know and love now.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

That’s so fun. I love that. Those skills are transferable. Like just reminder to us all, whatever your past life was, it’s absolutely relevant.

I feel like so many of us are ashamed by like a winding path or, oh, I had this one degree and I don’t use it.

Yes, you do. You absolutely do. Whatever experiences you’ve had, whatever you’ve learned, whatever like random rabbit holes you’ve gone down the internet, it shows up in some way.

Because it imprints on us. So yeah, love that you’re equal.

Emily Dean

Right. What we, what we eat, what we think, what we, you know, what we consume on the internet, all of it, all of it impacts how we show up in the world.

And Yeah, I had a period of time where I was really trying to detach myself from my like, you know, past corporate identity.

And then I just kind of reframed it and said, no, these are actually really valuable skills that now I can bring to people who I want to serve.

And to me, that feels like the most empowering thing.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Yes, yes, I love that. So I asked you your formal elevator pitch. What would you say? I call it a dinner party description.

What would you say to a stranger about what you do, especially someone who, you know, isn’t a marketing buff?

They don’t know about online business or being a founder, just like how you describe what you do in layman’s turn?

Emily Dean

Oh, God. Yeah, I do think I just, you know, help people show up and amplify the cool that they’re doing on a baseline level.

But I also know that, you know, a lot of entrepreneurs are exhausted, burnt out, you know, constantly. Speaking their brand, like I know, you know, I was at the beginning of my journey and still kind of feeling unseen and unclear.

So I really step into the role of like helping them figure out what exactly it is that they stand for and how they want to say that in a way that lands, you know, with a mix of, you know, psychology that I know about consumer behavior.

And then also just like the sharp as hell frameworks that I’ve picked up along the way. And especially in strategy, it’s like, there’s never one right framework.

I know every consultant is out there trying to like copyright and sell a framework. But like, it’s really like, it’s really just a tool in your toolbox.

And I have a lot of tools like that in my toolbox. So I get to implore them in different ways and get creative with them when I work with clients, but there is no right or only framework.

But so it’s, it’s also like, it’s part therapy, it’s part creative direction. And it’s part like brand evolution.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

I love that. It’s really interesting that you said therapy because I have on multiple, multiple occasions been called like a business therapist or something, even though I have no training in that realm.

But it’s really interesting how cathartic it is to unpack your brand in a safe container with someone you trust who can give outside perspective, give validation, give a little bit of, I call it empathetic accountability or like gentle pushback.

It is amazing how powerful that is because we live and breathe our brand. And we think about our business day and night, you know, regardless of how well you do the work-life balance thing, you’re still thinking about it, right?

Like it still takes up so much of your time and energy. And it really, really is. Nourishing to your brain and your soul to have spaces where you can unpack, oh, here’s what I mean by that.

Here’s language to put to that thing that has just been eating in the back of my brain for so, so long.

And yeah, I love that you have tools to do that without having a prescriptive approach to anything because it really is so dependent on personality and values and goals and everything in between.

Emily Dean

Yes. And honestly, it’s so much like excavation, right? Sometimes, I mean, I know I’m guilty of this, too. And I have to go to outside sources, like even just like my core friend group and be like, this is how I’m looking at this thing.

Like, is there any, am I missing something? Is there something I hadn’t thought about? You know, it’s just that there’s, there’s so many ways that we can open up our perspective to get to a.

Deeper sense of why we’re actually doing the thing we’re doing. And so I think it just helps to have somebody sit with you and ask why, you know, and not in like a, you know, poke, prod, like negative kind of way.

Just like, well, why is that? I’m just a very genuinely curious person. So like, okay, cool. Like you’re, you know, trying to create, you know, a new toilet paper.

Why? Like, oh, interesting. Why? And you’ll see that like, once you get into like, the fifth or sixth layer of asking why, only then do you get to like, really the root of why somebody is in their current pursuit.

And that’s what I think is like, absolute gold.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

And when you get to the center of that why, then the mind map from there of offer suites, audiences, grand manifestations, like whatever it is, is infinite.

Or at least, you know, there’s more than that one path of, oh, well, toilet paper, right? Like the why behind it.

Okay, what? Like the other. Ways could that show up in the world? I recently wrote about, I’ll have to link it if I have it somewhere, but I recently wrote about the five whys exercise.

I didn’t come up with it, of course, but that idea of asking yourself or asking someone or having someone ask you five levels of whys to get to that heart of, okay, here’s what we’re actually talking about.

and or a sort of like shortcut or slightly different way to do that same exercise is simply asking to what end?

It’s why, but in a much more tangible, like what am I actually aiming to accomplish here? Rather than why, oh, because I care about this.

Okay, why? Because I care about that. Okay, why? But to what end? And some brains might just react much more strongly to that.

So I really love that question as well.

Emily Dean

Yeah, and the ultimate problem that you’re solving for actually was… I was listening to a podcast. I’m totally blanking on the name of it.

But the importance of getting your problem to one word. You can get your problem to one word. It allows you to see all the potential possibilities around that problem.

And then you’re able to communicate that problem in depth. So it’s just like it brings an extra level of clarity.

I’m still like thinking about my word, right? I have like five words that I’m like narrowing down. But just how like to get to that precision is, you know, that’s what puts you on TED Talk stages.

That’s what makes Renee Brown like the, you know, the expert on shame. Like, it’s like you associate her with that one word.

And that’s what is like, sent her career like skyrocketing. There’s a lot of other examples of that. But I was like, wow, okay.

That one word thing really stuck with me.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

That’s really interesting. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of that, like, exercise or goal. So yeah, that’s really, I was going to ask, well, what’s your one word?

But since you said it’s a work in progress, well, you’re welcome to share some of the words, or we can just let it be, it is a work in process.

Emily Dean

I actually have it on a sticky note right here. I’m like, okay, autopilot. Like, that’s a word, right?

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Like, just doing things, like going through the motions without being intentional about why you’re doing them. So trying to get things off of autopilot.

Emily Dean

Yes.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Okay, because I feel like a lot of people.

Emily Dean

The problem is autopilot.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Okay, okay. Because I think a lot of, like, tech companies and AI, I don’t know, advocates would be like, oh, we want it to be on autopilot.

Set it and forget it. So that’s really interesting.

Emily Dean

Okay, sorry. What was the next one? In your business building, that we, you know, that’s, that’s how you come up with businesses that eventually become very unclear or don’t.

And don’t scale the way you want them to because you weren’t at the center of it. You put everything, you outsourced before you were ready.

You put things on autopilot that you shouldn’t have. Yeah, misalignment and like self-sacrifice, right? So to me, those are all kind of like three words that I’m like tapping into a little bit.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Do you want my knee-jerk reaction?

Emily Dean

Yeah.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Self-sacrifice is the thing that I think of most when I think of you and or it feels the most unique and resonant and empathetic and like heartstringy, but also very tangibly like you can point to a situation where you self-sacrificed and you can point to action items you can do to course correct that or make a better decision in the future.

So like it’s a little bit, you know, airy-fairy, but also it’s very, very Very tangible, especially when you’re experiencing it, and you’re like, oh, man, I did it again.

Oh, my God, we figured out my word. There you go. And spoken like a true messaging person, it’s like a double word.

So like kind of cheated, but also like self-sacrifice in and of itself is its own entity, but like snuck in two little parts.

Emily Dean

So like we just had a session.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

There we go. There we go. I mean, that’s, I truly believe that brand messaging, brand building, really all of the above of what we’ve spoken about is part magic, part science.

It is those tools, and it is that intuition and that experience and outside perspective. And it is all of the in-between and the integrations and interactions between those two sides of the spectrum.

Emily Dean

And I think that’s going to become more important than ever, right? I mean, yes, as entrepreneurs, like we’re all using.

In some way, shape or form, like, it can be your best marketing assistant if you want it to be, but it will never, it will never have your intuition, your creative thinking, your like unique perspective on things.

And so I just think that’s going to become more and more important to make sure that people know how to communicate that for themselves so that they’re not leaning too heavily on, on automation and AI.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Yeah, because I think whether it’s AI generated or from a consultant or from a, I don’t know, list that you downloaded from the internet or whatever it is, you still need that level of discernment and intuition to know, is this the right thing?

Because, you know, Chachi BG can spit out 10 different values for you. And yeah, they might all hit, but like, you’ll know based on your intuition, whether or not that’s something you.

That’s something you want to stand for. That’s a way you want to stand out. And AI or any other human will have no way of ever knowing that.

You need to have that discernment. And that’s a muscle you have to exercise. That’s an exercise of self-trust that comes with experience, that comes with feedback from your perfect fit people.

If you want to be aligned with your perfect fit people, knowing how they think and what they need and want from you, that’s an act of empathy to be able to kind of absorb their values without losing yourself by any stretch.

But yeah, all of that is innately human. And I think that’s beautiful.

Emily Dean

Yeah, yeah. Don’t get me wrong. I love chat daddy for certain reasons, but not going to be my end all be all.

That’s so funny.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

So I’d love to know, what’s your current trajectory? You’re two years into business. You are a 15-year corporate marketing veteran.

Emily Dean

What’s your vision for your life and your business? I will not hold you to it, but just curious, what’s the path you’re

Yeah, well, my ultimate like North Star is to get more women to that $1 million mark without burning out in the process.

Only like 2% of women founders actually get there. But yeah, I want to do that in a way that’s not burning me out either.

So that’s why I kind of think like small is the new big in terms of how I’m approaching my own business and just, you know, actionable daily steps.

And now I’m kind of in this process where I’ve been doing the one on one stuff for a while, and that really lights me up.

But how can I create containers where I’m helping more women that might not be able to afford what my one on one is.

So, you know, I’m kind of playing around with this idea of scale. And, you know, what can I what can I create that’s maybe a little bit more self paced, that’s like a nice entry level or then

How can I build community in a way that’s meaningful and a group of women that want to get behind better well-being in business?

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Oh, so, so beautiful. Also really fascinating, I think you just said 2% of female founders make it to that $1 million mark.

And I just feel like I follow so many women online that are like, I have a seven-figure business. And so it’s really fascinating.

A, you know, they could very well not be telling the truth. That’s very easy. Or B, just how easily we convince ourselves that because we saw it on the internet or because, you know, we have 10 accounts that we follow, it’s something that we’re somehow falling short on.

And I love the idea of representation. I love the idea of examples and aspirational content and inspirational content. But I do think we have to be really careful with that.

I think even a six-figure business is much, much further removed than most of us think. Oh, my God.

Emily Dean

Yeah. And even doing this mid-year planning with, her name is Megan Hale. She’s a scaling coach. So another number that popped up was just how the 250 mark for most women is the mark in which they feel nervous system regulation when they feel like they can finally hire authentically and pay people what they want to be able to pay them, right?

So scaling teams and being able to actually make an impact. So it’s like we feel like that number seems really big, like at the point of business that we’re at.

But we need to normalize that as being like a normal number to do the things that you want to do.

So it’s like that’s kind of been this like just this thing that’s like, oh. And my mental aperture of like, okay, we like if if you want to have like a meaningful business, aka the structure of it, that tends to be a number in which women feel that they can positively contribute.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

That’s really, really fascinating. I know you said before we recorded that you’re not a numbers person. I am not a numbers person either.

I manage my books to AT.

Emily Dean

But for myself, my own personal finances, I am a mess.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

I am. I’m really good at the tracking. Like I know exactly where every dollar and every cent is and goes and wins.

But the like big picture, like conceptualizing $250 or not $250,000 and what that could mean. And yeah, I think especially that hiring, you said authentically and paying people what you want to be paying them.

And feeling like you have enough money to let go of. To then bring in money that, you know, whatever this position would be bringing in.

Yeah, that’s really, really fascinating. And we’ll have to link Megan’s website or program or something in the show notes.

I’ll get that from you after. So what was the one decision or experience that changed the trajectory of your life?

I’m sure there were many, but any of come from us?

Emily Dean

many. Yeah, kind of my like quintessential pivot moment. You know, I think like I had, it was a panic attack, honestly.

And I landed myself in the hospital from it. And it just, I had gotten to a point where my body was screaming at me to do something different.

And there were a lot of other, you know, like personal things that were happening in my life that led up to that, that also contributed.

But I do think like my kind of the way that I. I had conditioned myself around this version of success and constant hustle and needing to prove your worth through performance.

You know, that was always kind of like an underlying theme. And then it just got to a tipping point.

And yeah, I just looked around at my life and I was like, this is not who I want to be.

This is not how I should feel in my body. This is not how the way I’m contributing to my community.

And, you know, the life I want, like, this isn’t it. So I just kind of had one of those big moments where I kind of burned it all down and rebuilt back again.

So in hindsight, I’m really grateful for that moment. But it was a solid, like, six months of terrible panic and anxiety.

So, yeah, you know, hopefully, like, I want to, like, help show women that you don’t. We to get to that point.

We don’t have to have these epic turning points, right? It can just be something if we put enough awareness into it ahead of time that that’s not something that your body doesn’t have to wake you up.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

You can slowly see the other side of it on your own. I think some personalities and situations and whatever you’re dealing with do need that scream, do need that burn it all down to build it back up completely from scratch.

And I think some of us also do better with the whispers, with the, oh, let me just follow this little breadcrumb.

Let me just see what this small change would do. Oh, let me just see what changing it one degree or 30 degrees rather than a complete 180 or 360 or, well, I guess 360 would be right back where you started.

But like I, some people really do better with that incremental change and that. Slow and steady progress. And some people take progress in really big strides.

And I don’t think there’s any right or wrong way. Obviously, you know, in terms of regulations and mental and physical health, maybe the whispers are a little bit better.

But also, some of us just need, they need a big catalyst, they need a big excuse to finally, finally take that leap, or finally know, oh, this, this is what I’ve been trying to figure out this whole time.

Emily Dean

Yeah, totally. And in hindsight, like I, I had the whispers, right? I just wasn’t listening to them the way that I should have.

And also, like around that time, like I had a death in my family that was, you know, really heartbreaking for me.

And I think it was just a perfect storm of, of that life hands you sometimes.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Yeah, you’re right.

Emily Dean

Like sometimes we need those major life events. And, you know, sometimes we don’t. And there’s no right or wrong to it.

It’s just that that happened to be my experience.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

So as a fellow messaging strategist, I want us all to understand and demystify the idea of messaging. There’s no right answer.

I just love hearing all the different perspectives because so many of my guests work in different industries and everyone has their own lexicon.

So I’d love to know what you think of when you hear the word messaging.

Emily Dean

Messaging to me is your brand’s like soul personified, right? Like you, like it is your DNA and the way that you’re sharing that with the world.

So, yeah, I think that we have, especially how we build brands, like there is a core message, right? And I do think we need one sort of umbrella core.

But then we have messaging frameworks that can be various scenarios under that. But as long as we’re laddering up to that one sentence, then to me, that brand is doing its job.

Take, for example, Liquid Death, Death to Plastic. That’s their core message. And I know it’s also their tagline, but when you think about that, you know exactly what their mission is.

know exactly what they’re about. And then obviously, they have a lot of different micro-messaging that lands under that based on who the person is that they’re talking to, what platform they’re showing up on, and what they’re trying to communicate.

But my guess, not that I am on Liquid Death’s brand team by any means, but my guess would be in the background, it’s an upside-down triangle, and everything is laddering up to that one core message.

So, yeah. Yeah, to me, it’s like, there’s a peak, and then there’s all the valleys under.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

I love that you started this with soul, and then you ended with a framework and DNA, and you just, you definitely are activating the, both parts, or the brain, brain, and heart, and I’m here for it.

Emily Dean

Yeah, I guess I did do that.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Yeah, that is, that’s your, I feel like that is your voice. That’s your vibe. That is so core to your messaging.

Emily Dean

We’re visual creatures, right? We need visual ways to understand things.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Yeah, especially big picture things, like a core message, like that, it’s big, right? So, yeah, thank you for that.

Yeah. So what’s your favorite way to market yourself, a medium or a method?

Emily Dean

I’m still figuring that out, to be honest. But yeah, I never really, like, I was not a social media person by any means prior.

So yeah, I feel like I’ve gotten a lot more comfortable showing up online. And you know, at the end of the day, that’s still the most inexpensive way that you can get your message out to the most amount of people.

You know, I’ve had discovery calls with people from all over the world, thanks to media. So I’m just like, as much as we hate the algorithm, and as much as like, you know, the people who own the platforms, that is like a whole nother story that I could totally rant about.

But for me, how I’m kind of framing it at this phase in my life, it’s like, it is a it’s a beautiful bridge to people all over the world.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Yeah, I think many, many people feel that same way, or want to feel that way, and sort of need a justification like that to continue to show up.

Emily Dean

Yeah.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

And this would not be an episode of Purpose in Progress podcast, if we don’t talk about values, and we

We sort of mentioned it in passing, but I would love to know either how you integrate your values into your messaging and your marketing, and or some values-aligned decisions you make beyond your copy content conversations.

Emily Dean

Wait, so the question is how do I integrate my values?

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Yeah, where do your values show up?

Emily Dean

Yeah. You know, I think of, like, one of my big values is, like, question growth always. So, you know, even personal life and professional life, I’ve seen so many people just grow for the sake of it, right, without kind of thinking about, like we were talking about earlier, why they’re growing, what’s the purpose of that growth?

Um, so for me, it’s like, when an opportunity comes across my table, I’m like, okay, but why? You know, it might sound really exciting, and I might, like, you know, have that hell yes energy, but unless I can validate.

Where it’s going to, what it’s going to lead to a little bit or how it’s going to serve my larger purpose, I question it.

So that kind of like self-inquiry is just like baked into my programming.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

And I bet that carries over really, really seamlessly into your client work as well.

Emily Dean

Yeah, there’s also this book I read at the beginning of my journey called Company of One by Paul Jarvis.

Highly recommend. But that’s what the whole book is about, is just like the power in staying small. And it really just kind of like helped shape the way I view business building.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Ooh, lovely. I will link it in the show notes. And then what is one tactical tip you can share about messaging, marketing that will save people, especially multi-passionate, deep thinkers, time or money or energy?

Emily Dean

What’s a tip you have? Yes, I love this question. I actually am going to pull from my experience working at Nickelodeon in my past life.

One of my favorite bosses actually had kind of instilled this in me, and I take it with me today, is that if you can’t put it on a post-it note, you haven’t landed on the idea yet.

So just the power and brevity, right? Like just being able to hyper simplify a mission vision message, right? In a way that resonates and still allows people to understand what you’re building and why you’re building it.

That’s my biggest tip.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Oh, that’s so good. And that’s very similar to the core message, to the one-word problem you’re solving.

Emily Dean

It sounds so simple, but it’s very hard.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Yeah, no, it’s like, that’s why elevator pitches are sometimes harder than bios, which are sometimes harder than about page, which are sometimes, you know, like it’s boiling down the essence, seeing the essence and seeing the trees through the forest.

Yes, that is the hard part. That’s why people bring us in, because that’s really, really hard to do. Yeah, okay.

So I’m certain everyone is going to be loving everything you just said.

Emily Dean

How can they stay connected with you? Yeah, well, I’m Emily Dean on Instagram, TikTok. I’m just starting an email newsletter.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Congrats.

Emily Dean

That’s my favorite medium. Yeah, I mean, it’s still kind of like the most personal way that you can show up for your people.

So I’m here for that. And then I’m also working on a actually a tiny visual course that is all about messaging.

So if that piqued your interest, I’ve got something for you. And then, of course, I’m also going to launch my group cohort.

It’s called the Brand Reset Lab. And that’s going to launch in August, which will be live by the time people listen to this.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

You might even be in a second cohort by the time this goes live.

Emily Dean

But yay, how is it ready? Everybody. So come join me.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Okay, lovely. Well, thank you so, so much. I’ll have all of that linked in the show notes. And Emily, what a pleasure.

Emily Dean

Thank you so much for having me. This is a delight. And it’s not raining anymore.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Look at that. Oh, I did that.

Emily Dean

Just so you know. Thank you. Thank you for your service.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Lovely. Well, how do you feel?

Emily Dean

I feel great.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Oh, good. Do you have links yet? Oh, I feel good. I mean, you’re like just so much gold. Um, do you have links yet to any of the things you mentioned and like the program or the course?

Emily Dean

No.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Okay. Well, you will by November. So yeah, if you think of it, send them and I’ll just add them to the show notes.

Like this will not be produced until much, much closer. My production team is by the time you launch it.

Yeah. Well, and definitely send it to me pre like when you are launching too, and I’ll give it a newsletter shout out.

Emily Dean

Thank you so much.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Yeah.

Emily Dean

Tiny course. I’m hoping to have the next couple. Weeks. then, yeah, the group cohort will kick off in August.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Okay, lovely. Well, yeah, send me all the updates, send me all the links so that I can spread the word, all the things.

Emily Dean

Yeah. Thank you so much. This was so fun.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Oh, good. Well, thank you. Thank you. I do have a three o’clock, so I do have to hop.

Emily Dean

But I will.

Ashlee Sang (Ashlee Sang)

Thank you. Enjoy your now sunny weather and definitely keep in touch in the DMs or in the inbox.

Emily Dean

Okay. All right. Thanks, Ashlee. Bye. Bye.